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	<title>Comments on: Op-Ed: ‘Yes on 1’ voters mummified institution of marriage in Maine</title>
	<atom:link href="http://mainecampus.com/2009/11/05/op-ed-%e2%80%98yes-on-1%e2%80%99-voters-mummified-institution-of-marriage-in-maine/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://mainecampus.com/2009/11/05/op-ed-%e2%80%98yes-on-1%e2%80%99-voters-mummified-institution-of-marriage-in-maine/</link>
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		<title>By: David J.</title>
		<link>http://mainecampus.com/2009/11/05/op-ed-%e2%80%98yes-on-1%e2%80%99-voters-mummified-institution-of-marriage-in-maine/#comment-11480</link>
		<dc:creator>David J.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Dec 2009 00:23:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mainecampus.com/?p=3724747#comment-11480</guid>
		<description>Yes, that is exactly what I am going for. In case it wasn&#039;t clear in my previous posts, I do in fact want all levels of government to cease all involvement whatsoever in marriages.

However, I am also a realist, and I recognize that my ideal outcome will never happen. So I am happy to settle for the second best outcome, which is to expand government regulation of marriage to the minimal extent necessary to achieve equal rights.

The problem is that, for some reason that I can&#039;t understand, you and every other gay marriage supporter in the world absolutely insist on reaching far beyond the issue of equality. There is no constitutional right to heterosexual marriage in any state or federal constitution in the country, yet that is exactly what gay marriage supporters seem to require. Not merely equality, but a new constitutional right only for gay couples, that heterosexual couples never had.

To be extremely specific, I want to live in a future where, should the population as a whole finally come to their senses and abolish state marriage, they will not have to confront the hurdle of repealing additional legal and constitutional privileges for gay marriages, provisions which are separate from heterosexual marriages.

I am honestly baffled why you won&#039;t settle for equality, and why you (and many of the other gay marriage supporters here) attack me for even suggesting that your movement should focus on equality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, that is exactly what I am going for. In case it wasn&#8217;t clear in my previous posts, I do in fact want all levels of government to cease all involvement whatsoever in marriages.</p>
<p>However, I am also a realist, and I recognize that my ideal outcome will never happen. So I am happy to settle for the second best outcome, which is to expand government regulation of marriage to the minimal extent necessary to achieve equal rights.</p>
<p>The problem is that, for some reason that I can&#8217;t understand, you and every other gay marriage supporter in the world absolutely insist on reaching far beyond the issue of equality. There is no constitutional right to heterosexual marriage in any state or federal constitution in the country, yet that is exactly what gay marriage supporters seem to require. Not merely equality, but a new constitutional right only for gay couples, that heterosexual couples never had.</p>
<p>To be extremely specific, I want to live in a future where, should the population as a whole finally come to their senses and abolish state marriage, they will not have to confront the hurdle of repealing additional legal and constitutional privileges for gay marriages, provisions which are separate from heterosexual marriages.</p>
<p>I am honestly baffled why you won&#8217;t settle for equality, and why you (and many of the other gay marriage supporters here) attack me for even suggesting that your movement should focus on equality.</p>
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		<title>By: Ginevra</title>
		<link>http://mainecampus.com/2009/11/05/op-ed-%e2%80%98yes-on-1%e2%80%99-voters-mummified-institution-of-marriage-in-maine/#comment-8707</link>
		<dc:creator>Ginevra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Nov 2009 19:42:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mainecampus.com/?p=3724747#comment-8707</guid>
		<description>It sounds to me like you are citing the &quot;symantics&quot; argument. That to achieve full equality, all we ought to argue for is making &quot;civil unions&quot; have all the rights allowed in marriage, just without the title. Also, I am guessing you&#039;d rather we refrain from talking of our &quot;civil rights&quot;?

The government already has established a marriage that is not religious, and has no religious affiliation. The history of marriage is ineffectual as part of the debate, as no one can exactly tell us whether or not marriage has always been a religious ceremony; focus instead on the modern concept of marriage, which DOES exist in a religious setting and in a legal one. The goal, ultimately, of same-sex marriage supporters was everything you suggested we do, except from shying away from calling it &#039;Marriage&#039;. 

In short, as long as a heterosexual couple can marry legally in any state, WITHOUT religious significance -- and this happens all the time right now -- and Gay couples cannot, the &quot;separate but uneqal&quot; argument will always apply.

Also, the language of LD 1020 very specifically PROTECTED religious institutions that do not support gay marriage.

Your proposal DOES FAIL to achieve full equality because you fail to acknowledge the current duality that marriage has. Whether or not &quot;marriage&quot; may have once been a purely religious institution is immaterial. Focus on marriage now, in 2009, where there is a specifically religious institution and a specifically legal institution of marriage, and no valid reason, in this day and age, to deny loving, commited gay couples protections under the latter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It sounds to me like you are citing the &#8220;symantics&#8221; argument. That to achieve full equality, all we ought to argue for is making &#8220;civil unions&#8221; have all the rights allowed in marriage, just without the title. Also, I am guessing you&#8217;d rather we refrain from talking of our &#8220;civil rights&#8221;?</p>
<p>The government already has established a marriage that is not religious, and has no religious affiliation. The history of marriage is ineffectual as part of the debate, as no one can exactly tell us whether or not marriage has always been a religious ceremony; focus instead on the modern concept of marriage, which DOES exist in a religious setting and in a legal one. The goal, ultimately, of same-sex marriage supporters was everything you suggested we do, except from shying away from calling it &#8216;Marriage&#8217;. </p>
<p>In short, as long as a heterosexual couple can marry legally in any state, WITHOUT religious significance &#8212; and this happens all the time right now &#8212; and Gay couples cannot, the &#8220;separate but uneqal&#8221; argument will always apply.</p>
<p>Also, the language of LD 1020 very specifically PROTECTED religious institutions that do not support gay marriage.</p>
<p>Your proposal DOES FAIL to achieve full equality because you fail to acknowledge the current duality that marriage has. Whether or not &#8220;marriage&#8221; may have once been a purely religious institution is immaterial. Focus on marriage now, in 2009, where there is a specifically religious institution and a specifically legal institution of marriage, and no valid reason, in this day and age, to deny loving, commited gay couples protections under the latter.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Swaney</title>
		<link>http://mainecampus.com/2009/11/05/op-ed-%e2%80%98yes-on-1%e2%80%99-voters-mummified-institution-of-marriage-in-maine/#comment-7996</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Swaney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 07:44:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mainecampus.com/?p=3724747#comment-7996</guid>
		<description>ANYONE can see the names of No on 1 donors.

I&#039;d like to believe openly showing where our funds originated is the more HONEST approach. If Maine voters like secrecy of who&#039;s buying massive amount of fear mongering ads...that&#039;s up to them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ANYONE can see the names of No on 1 donors.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d like to believe openly showing where our funds originated is the more HONEST approach. If Maine voters like secrecy of who&#8217;s buying massive amount of fear mongering ads&#8230;that&#8217;s up to them.</p>
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		<title>By: Astrid</title>
		<link>http://mainecampus.com/2009/11/05/op-ed-%e2%80%98yes-on-1%e2%80%99-voters-mummified-institution-of-marriage-in-maine/#comment-7812</link>
		<dc:creator>Astrid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 16:44:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mainecampus.com/?p=3724747#comment-7812</guid>
		<description>@Mark Sweeney

Thank you for proving my point. It&#039;s just too bad that next time you appeal for the other side to &quot;show empathy&quot; to gay couples you won&#039;t get the irony.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Mark Sweeney</p>
<p>Thank you for proving my point. It&#8217;s just too bad that next time you appeal for the other side to &#8220;show empathy&#8221; to gay couples you won&#8217;t get the irony.</p>
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		<title>By: Sean Fluegge</title>
		<link>http://mainecampus.com/2009/11/05/op-ed-%e2%80%98yes-on-1%e2%80%99-voters-mummified-institution-of-marriage-in-maine/#comment-7810</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean Fluegge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 15:48:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mainecampus.com/?p=3724747#comment-7810</guid>
		<description>Stop being ignorant.  You have no idea why they don&#039;t want their names released.  People shouldn&#039;t have to fear retaliation for their choices or opinions, but people like you make others cautious about revealing themselves.  That&#039;s not being cowardly.  You are just as bad as those who deny gays their rights.  And if you had read other comments on this page, you would have seen that there are plenty of legitimate reasons why someone could vote against gay marriage without being in the slightest bit a bigot.  Do your research about divorce rates before you try to make that argument as well.  I&#039;ve examined them before, and its not possible to make a clear distinction as to any single cause of divorce rates there are many factors.  Gay marriage is only one factor, and the number of gay marriages is so small compared to other marriages that it really wouldn&#039;t cause a significant impact.  If the rates dropped very much at all, there has to be at least one other very large cause to it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stop being ignorant.  You have no idea why they don&#8217;t want their names released.  People shouldn&#8217;t have to fear retaliation for their choices or opinions, but people like you make others cautious about revealing themselves.  That&#8217;s not being cowardly.  You are just as bad as those who deny gays their rights.  And if you had read other comments on this page, you would have seen that there are plenty of legitimate reasons why someone could vote against gay marriage without being in the slightest bit a bigot.  Do your research about divorce rates before you try to make that argument as well.  I&#8217;ve examined them before, and its not possible to make a clear distinction as to any single cause of divorce rates there are many factors.  Gay marriage is only one factor, and the number of gay marriages is so small compared to other marriages that it really wouldn&#8217;t cause a significant impact.  If the rates dropped very much at all, there has to be at least one other very large cause to it.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Swaney</title>
		<link>http://mainecampus.com/2009/11/05/op-ed-%e2%80%98yes-on-1%e2%80%99-voters-mummified-institution-of-marriage-in-maine/#comment-7741</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Swaney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 05:15:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mainecampus.com/?p=3724747#comment-7741</guid>
		<description>@Astrid

If there were valid reasonable arguements against marriage equality, then why are 4 MASSIVE donors (who hid where there money came from) 90% of their funding. Why hide behind school kids stirring up irrational phobias, when local school boards decide what is taught. Why use PHONY stock photos instead of actual Maine hetero families.
It&#039;s because they had NOTHING but bigotry, there is NO danger to straight marriage posed by same sex marriages. Look at VT, CT, MA, IA do they have straight marriages crashing and burning, or has their divorce rate FALLEN?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Astrid</p>
<p>If there were valid reasonable arguements against marriage equality, then why are 4 MASSIVE donors (who hid where there money came from) 90% of their funding. Why hide behind school kids stirring up irrational phobias, when local school boards decide what is taught. Why use PHONY stock photos instead of actual Maine hetero families.<br />
It&#8217;s because they had NOTHING but bigotry, there is NO danger to straight marriage posed by same sex marriages. Look at VT, CT, MA, IA do they have straight marriages crashing and burning, or has their divorce rate FALLEN?</p>
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		<title>By: Astrid</title>
		<link>http://mainecampus.com/2009/11/05/op-ed-%e2%80%98yes-on-1%e2%80%99-voters-mummified-institution-of-marriage-in-maine/#comment-7713</link>
		<dc:creator>Astrid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 02:47:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mainecampus.com/?p=3724747#comment-7713</guid>
		<description>Gay marriage doesn&#039;t bother me that much. The attitude of some gay marriage advocates is incredibly irritating, though. The other side can&#039;t be wrong, they have to be &quot;bigoted&quot; and &quot;filled with hate.&quot; God Forbid anyone tries to see it from the other side&#039;s point of view. I&#039;m sure there are good arguements against gay marriage, just like there are good arguements for it.

Certain people show themselves to be as hateful and intolerant as those they decry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gay marriage doesn&#8217;t bother me that much. The attitude of some gay marriage advocates is incredibly irritating, though. The other side can&#8217;t be wrong, they have to be &#8220;bigoted&#8221; and &#8220;filled with hate.&#8221; God Forbid anyone tries to see it from the other side&#8217;s point of view. I&#8217;m sure there are good arguements against gay marriage, just like there are good arguements for it.</p>
<p>Certain people show themselves to be as hateful and intolerant as those they decry.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Swaney</title>
		<link>http://mainecampus.com/2009/11/05/op-ed-%e2%80%98yes-on-1%e2%80%99-voters-mummified-institution-of-marriage-in-maine/#comment-7408</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Swaney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 18:19:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mainecampus.com/?p=3724747#comment-7408</guid>
		<description>GIVE UP your donor&#039;s NAMES, ya coward.
Maine court demanded you release them, you don&#039;t get &quot;SPECIAL RIGHTS&quot; in political question financing. No on 1 isn&#039;t hiding their donors, why are YOU?
81% of University of Maine voted NO, you are a tiny minority of 19%, you are also in the age group who will quickly take over Maine&#039;s electorate, those Knights of Columbus all appear over 70 yo. Five Catholic churches are closing.
You are so LAST CENTURY.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>GIVE UP your donor&#8217;s NAMES, ya coward.<br />
Maine court demanded you release them, you don&#8217;t get &#8220;SPECIAL RIGHTS&#8221; in political question financing. No on 1 isn&#8217;t hiding their donors, why are YOU?<br />
81% of University of Maine voted NO, you are a tiny minority of 19%, you are also in the age group who will quickly take over Maine&#8217;s electorate, those Knights of Columbus all appear over 70 yo. Five Catholic churches are closing.<br />
You are so LAST CENTURY.</p>
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		<title>By: Samantha "Edie" Hansen</title>
		<link>http://mainecampus.com/2009/11/05/op-ed-%e2%80%98yes-on-1%e2%80%99-voters-mummified-institution-of-marriage-in-maine/#comment-7333</link>
		<dc:creator>Samantha "Edie" Hansen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 14:05:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mainecampus.com/?p=3724747#comment-7333</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t understand your proposal. State marriage and religious marriage are already distinct. The law Maine passed which was voted down even unnecessarily restated the rights of religious institutions to marry or not marry whoever they wanted. What side effects are you seeking to minimize? If you want to make the government stop calling state marriage &quot;marriage&quot; and start referring to it as a civil partnership or something like that, you need to take it up with the federal government and make it a separate issue from marriage equality. Is that what you&#039;re going for?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t understand your proposal. State marriage and religious marriage are already distinct. The law Maine passed which was voted down even unnecessarily restated the rights of religious institutions to marry or not marry whoever they wanted. What side effects are you seeking to minimize? If you want to make the government stop calling state marriage &#8220;marriage&#8221; and start referring to it as a civil partnership or something like that, you need to take it up with the federal government and make it a separate issue from marriage equality. Is that what you&#8217;re going for?</p>
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		<title>By: David J.</title>
		<link>http://mainecampus.com/2009/11/05/op-ed-%e2%80%98yes-on-1%e2%80%99-voters-mummified-institution-of-marriage-in-maine/#comment-7319</link>
		<dc:creator>David J.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 10:37:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mainecampus.com/?p=3724747#comment-7319</guid>
		<description>Did you actually read anything I said? I put forth what I believe to be a very reasonable proposal. Let me vote on marriage equality in a way that minimizes side effects, and I will vote in favor of it.

If you don&#039;t agree with my proposal, fine, but I would appreciate some sort of constructive response rather than being called names like &quot;smarmy&quot;, a &quot;bigot&quot;, &quot;hiding&quot;, &quot;insulting&quot;, &quot;stupid&quot;, or a &quot;coward&quot;. I suggest you take a good hard look in the mirror and ask yourself honestly which of the two of us is being intolerant and hateful.

You have a long way to go if you are really under the delusion that you did everything correctly in this campaign. The 3-4% of swing voters out there are incredibly put off by this kind of rhetoric, which paints them with the same brush as the Christian right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Did you actually read anything I said? I put forth what I believe to be a very reasonable proposal. Let me vote on marriage equality in a way that minimizes side effects, and I will vote in favor of it.</p>
<p>If you don&#8217;t agree with my proposal, fine, but I would appreciate some sort of constructive response rather than being called names like &#8220;smarmy&#8221;, a &#8220;bigot&#8221;, &#8220;hiding&#8221;, &#8220;insulting&#8221;, &#8220;stupid&#8221;, or a &#8220;coward&#8221;. I suggest you take a good hard look in the mirror and ask yourself honestly which of the two of us is being intolerant and hateful.</p>
<p>You have a long way to go if you are really under the delusion that you did everything correctly in this campaign. The 3-4% of swing voters out there are incredibly put off by this kind of rhetoric, which paints them with the same brush as the Christian right.</p>
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