Columnist: Cleavage kills chivalry, cover up or keep dating a schmuck

Michael W. Gibson from beyond the grave?

You are being a complete hypocrite. You laud the women’s suffrage movement and deplore misogyny and then proceed to pass judgment and dictate your morality to the entire opposite sex.

Women may dress as they please, and it’s not the women’s problem if some men are douchebags.

And if there is a problem with women’s fashion, let the women sort it out, not you.

Before the suffrage movement, women wouldn’t be allowed in the bar. Just because you can do something, doesn’t mean you should. A man will not pay for what he gets for free. With the freedom to do something, comes a responsibility. The saying that birds of a feather flock together holds here. Like attracts like. If you dress tacky, you will attract tacky. If you dress nice, you attract nice. Not rocket science.

I apologize that I assumed, based on the author’s name, that she was a man. I didn’t realize it until I saw a physical copy of the paper today with her photo. However, the sense of my comment remains the same.

I will show as much or as little cleavage as I desire at any given moment, I will swear and drink and carry on in a masculine fashion if I wish. This is my body, my well-being and my prerogative. It is not my job to be aesthetically pleasing to anyone but myself and anyone I wish to be pleasing to. Nor is it my responsibility to represent some socially constructed group that I was unwittingly and unwillingly placed in at birth.
Chivalry is dying, this is true. But it is not dying due to any woman’s initiative towards drinking or low-cut shirts. It is dying a death to follow with the misogyny that it is based in. Like you yourself said, we are the ‘fairer sex’– which is just a sugary way of saying the ‘weaker sex’, in all fairness.
Fortunately your understanding of gender differentiation is dying, and so today holding a door open is not based as much on what sack of flesh you may or may not have hanging on your chest and more on the fact that you are another human being. It’s called ‘common courtesy’ now. Say what you want about that, but please don’t be so– yes I dare say it– sexist.

Concerned in Couchland

Then who defines ‘nice’? Is this another of our social constructs that is based on stereotypes and fallacies? I’d think so. And dressing ‘nice’ does not attract nice individuals. Please don’t fall for the ancient misconception of ‘beauty being the heart of good’.

Besides the photo, didn’t the phrases “the least we modern females can do” and “Her columns will appear every Thursday” give at least some indication that the author might be a woman? Just sayin’.

So, if the guys act poorly, it’s the women’s fault because they are showing more breast then you personally like?

I think not, we all should be treated with respect as human beings, breasts or not, dressed well or not. Who says, as women, we are doing everything just for men and not for ourselves?

I think you need to remember that before dumping a load of crap and assumptions on women you know nothing about beyond what you have learned from daytime television stereotypes.

Women can be just as misogynist as men, make no mistake.

J.’s comments are just as valid regardless of the author’s gender.

My only point was that a photo was not necessary to determine that the person who wrote the article was a woman. I have no desire to debate the merits of either Ms. Nason’s article or the arguments that have followed it.

Ryanne,

Bravo on this article. You’ve said what people should voice more frequently. Women are losing class; they’re losing self-respect, and they’re waving good-bye to integrity.

Sorry, that assertion regarding “sexism” has no clout. It’s not a question of sexism. I am a staunch feminist, and I still applaud this article. Of course women can act as they please, dress however they deem appropriate, just as men.

However, one’s image, one’s presentation, delves deeper than mere superficiality and trying to “please” an audience. It’s a statement of one’s self.

Audrey Hepburn versus Jessica Simpson. There is a difference.

And Audrey was still sexy.

While there is a ‘difference’, I feel that it stems far beyond what the person dressed like. Both people are representing their idea of the ‘self’, and I applaud both for it.
Even if I do not like Jessica Simpson.
It’s still a pervasive attitude that men are studs and women are sluts for their self-presentation. Which is a harmful representation of the same judgment.

And just because you fail to see sexism in this article does not mean that it doesn’t exist. This person (I don’t care if the author is male or female, it has the same negative effect) is trying to tell others what they should and should not do. And the entire argument is trying to bring back something that would only kill the feminist movement, even more-so because a single woman is claiming to know ‘how a woman should be’.
They should represent the self how they deem best, and leave others to their own devices in this socially constructed environment of ‘fashion’ and ‘class’.

If you define the feminist movement as wearing trashy clothing and embracing the “freedom” to let one’s chest hang out expose all of one’s skin, you have seriously missed the crux of the movement.

The feminist movement was about equality, women who said I’ve had enough of status quo, women getting jobs, rise of the pro-choice woman, no longer staying home with children, independence from men, being successful. I am sorry, but it didn’t have to do with the shedding of integrity and self-respect.

And no one said men are studs for their self-presentation. The same argument holds for men. The author was simply exploring the specific case of women who don’t “cover up”. I am sure she would deem men with their pants at their knees somewhat parallel.

Again, self-presentation is not merely about “fashion” and “class” as you so claim. It is about how you view yourself, how you feel about yourself. Women shouldn’t have to wear barely-present clothing to feel sexy or desirable–that is the demise of the feminist movement. We’re not talking styles. You may like bohemian; I may like European. We’re talking coverage.

Exactly, Dyana.

I think part of the problem is in sentences like this, that it is hard to respect women who “…swears like a pirate, out-drinks a redneck and proudly wears revealing clothing. “.

Why? How revealing is too revealing, exactly, the breasts, the neck, the ankles, the knees? How much? Do you think you get to make this choice for others?

Because this woman is not classy, or tasteful, or acts in a ‘male’ fashion, men and women can’t respect her as a human being?
That because of her clothing she deserved to have lewd late night calls from men or be treated poorly?

Erin, as a feminist you should be aware of rape culture and slut shaming, that in part feeds into attitudes like this. That women who are ‘dressed like strippers’ should be punished for their choice, they ‘ask for’ and deserve sexual harassment, or even rape. That clothing or sexual choice diminishes a women as a human being.
It places the blame of inappropriate male behavior on women.

Like this last line,
“So next time you find yourself skipping out to the bar, tuck the unmentionables away and see what happens. Maybe, just maybe, men will treat you with the respect you deserve. ”

Also treats men as if they having bestial natures, who just want to sleep with anything that moves and assumes that we can’t possibly expect them to act in a polite and civilized manner when confronted with the female form. That we can’t expect anything better from them, so we have to dress accordingly to be worthy of being treated with basic respect.

This sentiment should be offensive to both men and women.

With that said, I will agree with you in regards to holding the door for someone–simply being a common courtesy. And I am more a proponent for “covering up” for one’s self, not for the purpose of attracting ‘good men’. So at least we can agree on something

“cover up or keep dating a schmuck”
I think this small sentence says it all.

It’s not really about cleavage, it’s about inappropriate cleavage. And the cleavage question is not that important.

The first thing to understand is that guys NEED the conquest aspect of love to engage in a serious relationship.

The second thing is that most “good guys”, the ones a girl would want to marry, those guys often have a kind of “realistic self esteem”; They know where they stand in the food chain of life and love.

Girls who dresses “too desperate” will most often be considered as not offering a serious challenge and thus, not an interesting girlfriend for a serious relationship.

My advice: If you love a guy, dont be an easy prey for him and DONT sleep with him the first night, even if he is pushing for it; He is only testing you.

Resisting a bit will not scare of the guy, it will only confirm that you are not the kind of girl falling for just anybody and he will like that.

If you give it all the first night, Mr. Right will have spent a good night and will just continue to search for the real Mrs. Right the day after. He might call you back one day when he will be desperate.

Love is still a game and some good people (including myself) still like the old rules of romance and chivalry.

So that’s love…a mere game of playing your cleavage cards correctly and appropriately giving your object of affection a conquest…

How enlightening. You should have a column.

But the point is, yes, women shouldn’t have to wear barely-present clothing to feel sexy, but they shouldn’t be publicly shamed for it either, and a poorly dressed woman is not a free pass for men to act like smucks.

You also have ignored all points that have been made about females being blamed for male behavior, with it not acceptable, just as it would not be acceptable for the man with his pants down to be sexually harassed and endure demeaning 4 am phone calls.

How about this, I have sex, whenever, and with whomever I want, and not when I don’t want it. (Safe sex of course!)

How about I don’t use my sexuality as a fishing lure to bring in guys who want to ‘prey’ on me like some sort of wild animal, and use pressure to ‘test’ my ‘virtue’ as a lady. He sounds like such a great guy, you are more then welcome to him.

How about I date, and spend time with men (or girls, or gender fluid, ect), like my boyfriend, who actually like me as a person, for my REAL virtues of honesty and self confidence. Not because I play some sort of vagina fly fishing game.

How about I marry, if I want to marry, men who are good people, who can talk to me like a human being, who see my value not as a sex object to catch but as a partner to have sex with. Sex does not diminish my value, and anyone who thinks so is in my eyes, not up to par.
Women bring so much more into a relationship then their vaginas, and if sex is the only reason your partner is with you, then they have no reason to stick around once things get a bit dull or they have finally ‘scored’. You are free to do things your way, and I mine, but no one deserves to be treated poorly for wearing a low cut shirt.

how about women and men can do as they please when they please-men can be sexually promiscuous well so can women. You chose one place such as the bear brew on a thursday night to add an image to your agenda. You chose a group that would perfectly back up your point without the consideration that you are looking at one small group of individuals who chose to dress that way. It is not your place to tell anyone how to dress, just as it is an individual’s choice regarding abortion. The same principle should be applied to how a person dresses. Women and men have the right to play the game of love or lust however they want if that entails lots of cleavage and raunchy sex- go ahead. Not my taste but people do not have the right to tell others how to live their lives or how to dress-have your cleavage hang out and lure men in with your body if that’s what you want. the same could go for men who gel their hair, shave their bodies, tan and wear ridiculously tight shirts to attract women or other men. The main point is that you can do what you want and no one has the right to push his/her views on you. Maybe someday you’ll chose another way to play the game but if this is what you want right now-go ahead this is a free country and your body is your own!

A fearless heart-pounding long term mystery; the way of the man and the maiden…be it be on the sunstroked golden, green shores of Mozambique or behind the sand-bagged lines of war, the heart will always be ready for the real. The college bar scene can offer glimpses in that longing, and the great wander-lust for adventure and conquest will culminate in an endorphin/hormonal revolt against any paranoid cultural stringencies waging war on the ‘ho’ image: sex sells, but check yo-self before the wreckage slams you up against reality’s wall: for further hindsight enlightenment, don’t be that guy or gal that ends up on National Geographic’s “Locked Up Abroad.” ‘Nuff said, b*tchs Now go forth and treat a guy right!